The poems are a major popularity
contest with many poets losing out
On comments because it's a friendship thing,
I'm unsure of a solution though

I just post and if I get two comments
I'm lucky, this is common problem across
The board.


- how many registered users are there?
do most people click thru without commenting
Are there stats on

Number of people who comment VS
Number of people who click thru without
commenting

Or number of people who rate VS
Number of people who click thru

I'm just trying to work out why most
Registered users don't comment
Or do they?

Stats can help understand what going on

Human nature is human nature. I would suggest if we're posting poems only to receive comments (in particular, praise), maybe we're writing poems for the wrong reasons. Also many of the posted poems are just not any good. Sometimes it's nicer to say nothing than to say something truthful but painful - advice I haven't always heeded, but something I lean more and more towards these days. Please do not read that to reflect on your own work, or any poet's postings in particular; I'm speaking generally. Another problem is that there's a large number of poets on the site, and it can be frustrating trying to sift through 100 things you don't care for at all, just to find a single something you DO like. If I were to leave 99 comments about why I didn't like a poem to every 1 comment in which I expressed enjoyment, wouldn't I be characterized as a bit of a bastard? Many of the poems that I don't like, in my own view, couldn't be fixed anyway, and the only commentary I could offer would be, "delete the poem". That wouldn't serve any function other than antagonizing someone. So we keep clicking through until we find something we like or else give up in despair. The novelist and poet Margaret Atwood, speaking of criticism - reviewing books, specifically - said "I prefer doling out marshmallows". Meaning she prefers to review and discuss books she enjoyed, rather than panning those she didn't. I can't disagree.

Tiger your analysis makes sense
Thank you

Our furry friend said it well. There are just too many poems being posted. Most of them should never be posted in the first place, and the kindest thing one can say about them is nothing, because they are beyond hope. Saying the truth is only going to make you look like a nasty bastard and will probably provoke a vicious response from the author.

And then of course there is the question of time. I probably only get time to read about 1/10 of all the poems posted. Naturally one tends to look for poets whose work one already knows and respects, although from time to time I do look at poets whose work I don't think much of, in the hope that perhaps they have improved, which happens occasionally. Also I try to make a point of checking out newbies to see if I can discover a good poet among them - this also happens occasionally.

As the site grows, I guess we can all expect that we will get fewer comments on our poems. And that quantity will overwhelm quality. It's always the way.

I too agree, we need to focus on Not looking for comments, but to look at it as no comment is a good thing. I read way more than I comment on,I refuse to make bad comments as I feel that squash's the authors desire to continue writing. I have seen over the few years I have been on this sight several young poets who, persons chose to degrade in their comments and the young poets have not posted since, or in a very limited post. We as a Gould should be here to nurture and in courage their works.

I'm gonna cut back
Maybe abstinence
Go to PA
Thanx I understand!

I take it from this that I shouldn't look for comments on my pieces. Bummer...

doris wrote:

I take it from this that I shouldn't look for comments on my pieces. Bummer...

Not at all. You've just posted a good poem in Forums. But as a newbie, just expect that it may be a while before people notice you, so maybe you won't get many comments immediately.

doris wrote:

I take it from this that I shouldn't look for comments on my pieces. Bummer...

Network. Go give at least 20 comments (for 20 different poets) for every poem you put up and you shouldn't have any issues. This doesn't mean to take 5 hours out of every day to do it - merely to give more feedback if you expect more feedback. There are some people here who write multitudes of poetry and complain about never having feedback on their work when they never give feedback to others - don't be that person.

GP has been very slow lately with comments - it takes time to become noticed and become a "regular" here. You have to work at it.

My rule of thumb is to comment on at least 20 poems for every poem I post. This generally serves me well. I haven't been commenting much lately but I haven't been writing much of anything lately either - it tends to work itself out.

I can generally tell after reading one or two poems from someone if I dig their style/storytelling/writing. If I do I'll add the person to my buddy list and come back and semi-regularly read them. If I don't dig the poet, I'll move along to someone else.

As a rule of thumb, I tend to avoid most new poets who have shorter poems (and many other regulars around here as well) - I prefer more prosaic poetic work - but I do sometimes make exceptions if it is something that stands out to me.

j.p.

But isn't commenting here in the forum what people are supposed to do? Shouldn't I expect to have interaction with others? If that isn't what this site is about then I shouldn't really be here. I understand, j.p., that a person needs to "network" and comment more than want comments. I also understand that not every poem will be something we "dig".

What I don't understand is reading "members for life" and a "site curator" saying that poems do not deserve comment. My instructions when joining the site were to come here and get comments. Looking at the number of poems posted here it doesn't seem like "too many" to me. Oh, well, perhaps I'll need to go elsewhere for a poetry community.

Thanks for expressing your honest feelings about the place. It felt very much like walking into a store and seeing an abundance of options and all the people walking around kept telling me that most everything in the store sucked and that hardly anything ever gets sold so why try to sell it. Also reading some other threads in the Coffee Shop I also learned that the folks inside cheat all the time and if they aren't cheating they are blaming others of cheating. I wonder if you know that you come across in this way. (shrug)

delete

Comments are essential to keep
A writer motivated otherwise what's the
Point in an interactive site

Comments are how we learn and improve

The workshops help in this regard

But the popularity thing is the trickiest issue
Long lines of comments on a few poets
Who deservedly get these but leaves
The majority of poets lucky to get a comment
Or two

It is human nature this occurs
Doris don't give up it's a great site
I'll read your poetry and comment and
Hopefully others will as they read this

Off to read Doris!

I wasn't wondering about a comment with no rating. I'm not even sure what you are talking about. I obviously am missing something in this whole thread. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what "commenting" means to you all. I thought what we are doing know is "commenting". I'm just trying to follow directions from the staff. I was told to post here. While posting here I read through the Coffee Shop banter. I responded to what I have read.

As far as posting a few poems a day...that is not going to happen. I don't write like that. Especially when I am trying to make a finished piece. If having to post a few poems a day makes me "serious" about my work then I am obviously in the wrong place. Wow! How in the world is one expected to take in what others are saying about one's work while posting in such a manner? I don't see you, James, posting in such a way, but you must have proven yourself already. I certainly hadn't lost heart before, but I might have to rethink that after such a statement.

doe

Ilan, I have only one poem to comment on. It is in the Post a Poem forum. I am always grateful for a fresh perspective on what I am working on. Thank you. I don't notice that you post poems there. I am puzzled to how you all are actually following the directions of the site. ????

doe

doris wrote:

But isn't commenting here in the forum what people are supposed to do? Shouldn't I expect to have interaction with others? If that isn't what this site is about then I shouldn't really be here. I understand, j.p., that a person needs to "network" and comment more than want comments. I also understand that not every poem will be something we "dig".

Commenting in the forums is different from the finished poems section. I was referring to the finished poems section. The forums, by nature, have much more interaction with people - as you've discovered here.

doris wrote:

What I don't understand is reading "members for life" and a "site curator" saying that poems do not deserve comment. My instructions when joining the site were to come here and get comments. Looking at the number of poems posted here it doesn't seem like "too many" to me. Oh, well, perhaps I'll need to go elsewhere for a poetry community.

Many of the "poems" here honestly do not merit comments and/or ratings. They are two distinct things in the finished poems section. I avoid ratings for my own work - I don't see a point in being subjectively interpreted by the masses by their whim - and there are many who rate me low just because they disagree with my theological and/or political ideology and it has nothing to do with the work itself. So, I allow only commenting on my work. If you think a piece I've written sucks - say so in the comment as opposed to attempting to give me a "blind rating" that James is referring to above - I don't allow such a thing.

Overall, GP is probably the best poetry website on the internet as there are some incredibly fine poets here (I could introduce you to some). You'll meet some wonderful people through GP but it does take time to network with others. According to the banner there are about 13,000 members. The number of active members here are probably around 500 in actuality and the number of those who regularly read others work and leave feedback is probably around 250 - this is going to be about the average of any poetry website out there.

doris wrote:

Thanks for expressing your honest feelings about the place. It felt very much like walking into a store and seeing an abundance of options and all the people walking around kept telling me that most everything in the store sucked and that hardly anything ever gets sold so why try to sell it. Also reading some other threads in the Coffee Shop I also learned that the folks inside cheat all the time and if they aren't cheating they are blaming others of cheating. I wonder if you know that you come across in this way. (shrug)

Most everything in the store DOES suck. Sometimes I go through the completed poetry section (not the forums generally) and I sigh in reading over some of the "poetry" presented there as it's, to be honest, horrendous and not worth my time. And then there are times I am blown away by the talent and ability of someone. Sturgeon's Revelation states: "90% of everything is crap." - I believe that's accurate in basically everything - including poetry here. It is the same on any poetry website. So, it takes awhile to weed through the awful to get through the truly excellent - and there are some around here who are excellent.

I can't speak to the "cheating" aspect as I don't bother with anything that could lead me to be accused of cheating - I'm not interested in the subjective slams. I just write my work and post it for other people to enjoy or not enjoy. I enjoy the feedback of others, for the most part, just as much as others.

As far as posting multiple times per day - that's a matter of a specific poet's perspective. I sure as hell can't write like that. I write maybe 1-3 poems in any given month so I'm certainly not able to do that. I would just remember to give at least 20 comments per each individual poem you post and people will discover your work.

j.p.

delete

Doris --

Here's the way the place is supposed to work, the way those of us who were here when it was a BBS back before the Web designed it to work.

1. You posted poems in the Forums.

2. You got comments and feedback on your work.

3. When you felt satisfied with it, you posted it in the Finished Poems section.

That was it.

Here's how it works now:

1. You join the site.

2. You immediately start posting poems to the Finished section.

3. You complain about your ratings, or lack thereof.

4. You disdain actual feedback, and complain about low ratings, and demand changes to the system which you aren't using as intended in the first place.

5. You hang around until you can't stand it anymore -- which is why most of the original staff left long ago. I don't even know why I've stayed.

And now that I think about it...yeah. I think it's time to go.

Have fun.

Tony

GP member, 1998-2011

delete

Did I say anything in that post that wasn't true?

I fought hard against this current state of affairs for years. I'm tired. I'm sad. I put a HUGE amount of time into this site and have for a long time. If I am bitter, I'm entitled to it. You don't know the half of it.

I read the poem Doris posted. She's too good a poet not to know the truth. Her comments in this thread indicate that she's already well on her way to figuring it out. All I did was save her some time. Think of it as customer service -- or better yet, service to her poetry and her intelligence.

I've already told John what I did and directed him to this post. He and I are old friends. For his sake, I'm staying on the site until we talk. If he disapproves of it, we'll deal with it ourselves. I take full responsibility for the post and the tone of the post. What i won't do, however, is back away from it.

delete

I take it you're not actually hearing me.

More about the site that I like than I dislike? No. I don't even read my old column anymore.

You're right about the writing being most important, which is why I posted what I posted. Way too many people majoring in minors around here. I looked at some of the feedback Doris got on her poem -- she deserved better.

I'm not on here much because I deserve better. I'm here out of loyalty to an old friend and stubbornness about what was. The site doesn't help me much with my own work anymore.

If it serves the needs of others, so be it. It doesn't serve mine. And there are many strong poets who've come to the same conclusion over the years. I think I've just been an idiot.

I am staying on GP because it is a great
Place to write and many lovely poets
Let's just work on improving ourselves
and the way the site works and not
blame others

I read my poet friends cause it's human
Nature but I need to try read an unknown
Poet more often

This is good debate but being too negative
Can't help

GP is a poet's paradise in a lonely world
Of writing I'd still recommend this great
Site. A few more comments on poems
for everyone would be nice as this is
feedback.

As a vote of confidence I'm donating
to the site and hope we all see the good
here which there really is

Cheers Ilan

Tony (and others):

I come here to read poetry and post my own for the hopeful enjoyment of others. I've never been disappointed in posting work here or in sharing in the enjoyment of the poets I feel who are excellent.

Tony: I don't argue with your understanding of the structure of the site so much as the content itself. There are some wonderful poets here and I feel honored to have a place to come and share my work and read the work of other fine folks.

I remember a time, not so long ago, where it would be impossible to have a place like this where people could come and share their work for the enjoyment of many others - you had to "get lucky" enough through busting your ass off to be published in a literary magazine and then through circulation only a handful of others would be able to enjoy your work and a great number of poets you would never be able to discover. Thanks to the internet this is a bygone era - we now have the opportunity to come together in a place like GP for this purpose.

Is GP perfect? Of course not. But don't allow hypocrisy (including my own, no doubt, from time to time) remove you from the good that is here. I, for one, would definitely miss your insight.

I feel privileged and honored to be able to share my work with individuals like you, Harry Rout, Mary Ann Schallert, Rory Hudson, James, and many others from many different locations and paths. Like any poetry website, we're going to have our ups and downs and whining moments - but what connects us together is our enjoyment in writing and passion for words. I feel I would personally be at a loss without this - and knowing there is a place like GP where I can come and share with others is always a highlight to me on any day of the week.

j.p.

Well then.

The site contains a lot of dross, a lot of ridiculously high ratings and insufficient serious critique. Many people seem unable to tolerate low ratings or the faintest suggestion that their poems are not perfect. However, the site still also has a substantial number of very good poets and a substantial amount of useful critique, not to mention that it gives opportunities for good discussion and improving one's work, and personal interaction with other poets. In my opinion this makes it worthwhile. I would like to see many changes but I recognize that resources are limited and there is only so much that John and others can do. My suggestion to anybody who wants to improve the site is to post good poems and give serious feedback and honest ratings.